Interview with Dr. Percy V. Williams

              Interviewee: Dr. Percy V. Willia)ms (PW)
Interviewer: Betty Manson (BM

BM:	October 12, 1988, on a beautiful fall Wednesday afternoon, and it certainly is my pleasure to be in the company of Dr. Percy V. Williams, educator, friend, civic worker, and with a list of other titles that we could go into in length. For today we'd just like to have Dr. Williams, in this initial recording session, to give us some personal accounts, or give us some background of him.	He carries with him a wealth of information and in talking to him and in being in his presence many, many times, we find that he had so much to offer. This, of course, is our purpose. To prepare a personal history to be catalogued and used in the Harford County Archives. So with that we'll begin with Dr. Williams.
PW:	I think this is a marvelous occasion when someone, after having lived three score plus ten years plus, to take just a few moments to look back over things that have happened and try to single out some things that might have had an impact on his life, but more important, some things that he has cherished over the years.	And to note some of the changes that have come about in the society in which he has lived.	First, I want to mention the idea which is so much a part of my family, and that is the emphasis of getting an education and the value off an education.	As I think about it, I know I was no more than four years old when I would sit and listen to my father and mother, and occasionally whenever we had some visitors, talk about their school days and the teachers which they had, and one teacher in particular.	A man by the name of John Redman, frequently called J. I. Redman, who was the \I/v'\ I <:Y\Q. t' kv I	e.....­principal of a two room school in .MacuH:isbY:°	The same man was my first teacher, but he was also my father's teacher.	I recall one of my first days in school this person was a very strict disciplinarian and he had at times children in fear of what was going to happen if they did not do well in school and also, if they did not behave.	This man had taught a number of the children's parents, just as he had taught my father, and I think it's significant to note that so many adults at that time thought getting an education was something very important because their parents had been deprived of the opportunity to go to school in many instances.
Or if they did go to school, they went to school for only brief periods during the year, such as my father, who had to work to help earn whatever they could for family support.	I remember hearing my father so many times talk about going to school from the end of November through March.	The other times were needed for work, and that was typical, not just of my family, but of so many families.	It was also typical of what was happening, not just among blacks, but it was also typical of so many persons of the other race.	It was a great thing for persons to talk about going to school and learning.	Even at that time there was great concern about how well one would do in school and who might be doing well in school and who may not be doing so well in school, and the extent to which black people needed the opportunity more than so many other people because we had been denied the opportunity down through the years because of slavery and the associated problems.	That being a core discussion at dinner tables or whenever groups met.	It certainly was not something that everybody accepted to the same extent and degree.	I'm sure I was among the fortunate   ones, or my family was, because both my father and mother believed in getting and education and they made many sacrifices for us in order that we could go to school and yet, at the same time, as I mentioned, many sacrifices.	I think that's true, but also they insisted that we give up some of the other kinds of things, pleasures, in order that they might, first of all, have a secure home and at the same time have enough money to send us to school.	I want to emphasize here that going to school was important. There was no mistake about it.	We had questions and when report cards were due and my parents looked at report cards.	They decided what was appropriate as a grade and if we came home lacking, at least a C, there was some question about why. The report card did not come home very often with anything less than a C, although I cannot say that I was among the brightest in the class.		I did some study at home, as I was required to do. Like other children, I tried to find some time to play, but there wasn't a great deal of time to play because we lived on a farm and there were chores around the farm to do after we got home, having had to walk two miles and a half each way.	In the winter time it was dark in the evenings when we got home and there still were those animals that had to be fed and other kinds of activities on the farm.
So when we had finished doing them and had eaten what was then called supper, many times we were tired and fell asleep.	My father would always allow us to sleep for a half an hour or something and then he would say, "Get up and wash your face and study some lessons."	Many times we had to put some water on our face that was usually cold and you would awaken, but you would go back to sleep again, and he would say, "Get up and go to bed."	But it was good, as we looked back upon what we did and compared it to what some other children had.	A lot of good things happened, I think, to us as we went through school.	There was always the emphasis on learning, again, at home, but at the same time there was in those days what's called peer pressure, also.	There were a number of children who did not have parents who wished them to achieve and they exercised a great deal of pressure trying to convince me and others that we spent too much time trying study.	I want to mention one incident in what was the Swollen Creek Elementary School, the having attended school first school that I came to 111 I e.-at Michaels .	Here the main teacher was Mr. J. R. Redman, as I mentioned.	In moving to this new school, the climate was a little different and I recall an incident that made me understand what peer pressure really was.		Upon entering the school and being filled with the idea that I had to succeed, I should succeed, I should do well in reading, math.
Basically math was a particular concern and interest of my father.	In those days children had to go to what was called the blackboard and do their math problems on the board so that the teacher could see what they were doing and also so that you could explain it aloud and the teacher could understand your procedures for solving different kinds of problems.	At any rate, in this instance my first few days at the school, I was filled with excitement about learning and wanting to do well.	I think I was seven or eight years old.	At the chalkboard was a girl fourteen or fifteen years old, I guess in what might have been then the fifth or sixth grade. She had an example to multiply on the board and it involved numbers like 648 multiplied by 27.	She started to do the computation and the teacher said, "Say it aloud," and the girl stumbled with first figure, 7 times 8.	When the teacher said to her, "7 times 8," the girl stood there for sometime and I had been taught at home to try to [unclear] by learning something and I raised my hand and said, "I know; I know; I know."	The teacher looked at me and was ready to call on me, whereupon this girl turned around and gave me such- a difficult look I did not say anymore until she stumbled through 7 times 8 with different incorrect answers, whereupon the teacher called on me and I said, "56."	The girl turned around and said, "I'm going to get you."	Not loud enough for the teacher to hear, but loud enough for me to hear.	Whereupon, at what was called the recess period, that girl and four other girls, all in the 14, 15, 16 age category and I was 7 or 8 years old.	I was very small and two girls got my arms, two got my feet and I think the girl in question got some sizeable sticks and stood on the
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side and they sort of paddled me in a kind of way that I had never been paddled before, with words such as, "We'll teach you about being so smart."	Of course, I went inside at the end of recess and told my teacher and my teacher called the girls in from recess and wanted to know what it was all about.
They said, "Well, we were just following through with what we  usually do. When anybody has a birthday we give them a birthday paddling and his sister had told us that it was his birthday. So we were giving him a little birthday paddling." The story, of course, concerning my birthday was not true, but the emphasis was upon "you keep your mouth shut and don't show us up."	It's a lesson that I've learned [unclear].	However, there was that kind of thing coming from the peers, but something different coming from my parents.	"You've got to do your best."	So that there's evidence in the context in the amount of peer pressure that was true in those days as it is today, and I think important. Turn that off.
[recorder turned off]
When I arrived home that afternoon I told my parents about what had happened and, of course, they felt sorry for me and tried to console me and said, "It's unfortunate."	They didn't use the word unfortunate.	"It's too bad that you have those kinds of people." I was too young to realize all that was going on, but my parents did try to console me.	About the same time that this was going on I had [unclear].	Another aspect of your life is your church life or religious activity.	My parents went to church every Sunday.	We went to church by horse and buggy.	The whole family went to church together.	It w s not long after that that I became a member of Methodist Church where I've held     my membership all my life.	Even today I still do everything I possibly can to support and uphold that institution.		However, becoming a member of the church at such an early age that, too, focused some criticism or some moments of ridicule.	I was told    by older children that I did not know what I was doing and those kinds of comments.	However, I noticed that my mother and father attended church and they did certain things and I thought it was the appropriate thing because my parents were doing it. My father, especially, was a role model and example for me in many ways, even though I may not have understood everything that he was attempting to do or that he was doing.	He was a role model for me and I tried as hard as I could to do the kinds of things which I saw him doing.	That being the case in school and in church.		It was also the kind of thing which I probably do with work.	As a boy, and the oldest boy in the family, there were kinds of things that I did on the outside with the horses that we had in plowing and cultivating and all those things at a very early age.		So I think I was able at the age of 10 and 11 to do with a team of horses what many men did and found difficult at many times.	I guess I want to through an idea in.		At the age of 12 I worked on several farms doing what many men did, but I also did what boys did.	In Harford County the big thing for boys and even girls to do on the farms was thinning corn.	Many farmers grew sugar corn, 1000 top 1200 acres of sugar corn and the one job that was appropriate for children was the thinning of corn.	By that I mean the corn was planted in hills with a machine drawn by horses, and the extent to which seed corn would germinate was not as it is today.	So that in each hill of sugar corn, 4, 5, or 6 seeds were dropped and sometimes two of those seeds would appear and come up, and sometimes all six would.		So that as the corn reached about a foot out of the ground, any hill that had more than two stalks had to be thinned and that was the job for teenagers.	I mean for children.	I did that along with all other child, but at the age of twelve it was my great experience to do what I thought was something that really made me on a par with any other man.	At the time of the canning season I did what was called haul corn from the field to the canning factory.	This was basically a man's job and for that kind of work I got the big sum of two dollars and a half a day.	It should be noted that for the most part men at this time, during this age period, received basically a dollar and a half or a dollar-seventy-five cents, or at most two dollars, but during the canning season when you had to arrive early in the morning--and when I say early in the morning, it was typical to go to work at 6:00 in the morning and one would work from 6:00 until 5:00, 5:30.	Prior to the Depression, from having been born in 1914, that meant that when I was twelve years old in 1926, the usual length of day was from 6:00 until 5:30.	But during the canning season those persons who hauled corn from the fields to the canning factory had to be in the field ready to load the corn at 6:00 and sometimes you had to drive a team as far away as four or five miles.	That meant that you had to be at the barn to start the team on the road at least a half an hour and sometimes an hour before the men started to pulling.	How did one get any fun or activities in with such long days?	We started--and I cite this to give the listener some idea of the kinds of things that men use for fun and humor--trying to see who would be the first person to get to the field in the morning.	Sometimes men would leave home early enough to be in the field at 5:00 in the morning and then they would have to wait in the field until 6:00 when the men started pulling.	The stupidity, and yet I guess the fun that they saw in trying to decide who could be the first man to get in the field.	You were then considered the greatest man, depending upon who got to the field first, even though you waited another hour before people started to work pulling the corn.	I would listen to tales of men who would talk about going to camp meeting and staying at camp meeting until 11:30 or 12:00 and then going home, walking their girlfriends home or whatever the case might be and then after having walked their girlfriends home, having another three or four miles to walk to their homes, getting there only in time to change their clothes and start on the road to the field to pull the corn.	That was exciting activity as they related it to see who could be the first in the field.	I've tried to analyze and see what was the pleasure in that, and I found very little other than the conversation which the men had over "I was the first in the field this morning."		Even though they would have to wait an hour and a half or whatever the case might be, until the men started pulling corn.	That was the kind of thing which men had been taught by "their bosses" was important.	Of course, I tried to adopt some of that, or do some of the same kinds of things, but I lived and my father lived, much farther from the big farms because he had a little farm of his own.	My brothers and I, we had to drive our buggy and so-forth down to the big farm and we were always behind the other men who worked on these big farms.	I'm talking about 40 and 50 men who really worked on these big farms.	It was a part of the culture that you adopted, you learned about and you accepted because that was the culture at the time.
[tape turned off]
As one might have gleaned if he had been listening to the comments relative to work and the kinds of things which I did, earning a living and getting sufficient money for the necessities of life occupied the time of most adults.	Children assisted in whatever chores had to be done and that was considered a normal kind of thing.		That's why those persons who might have read something about history realize that there were such things as child labor laws and those kinds of things as far as the city and other parts of the country were concerned, but in rural areas children worked on farms.	There was no strict enforcement of compulsory attendance laws, even though they were on the books.		It was considered appropriate.	My parents kept us out of school only on rare instances when they felt that something had to be done around the household or some extra farm duties had to be done.	I do not remember ever having to stay home and go to someone else's house and work during the time that school was in session.	We might have done some of that around our home or on our small farm, but not to go away.	This was not the case for a number of children of the colored race, black race or whatever you want to call it.	My brothers and sisters were all taught that education was important.	We may not have had as many of the nice clothes and things as some of the other children's parents might have provided.	In fact, my parents never even tried to keep up with the Joneses as far as clothing and things of that sort was concerned.	They wanted to make certain that we were given good, hardy diets of food; good hardy diets of discipline, work and religious activities, all of which I think, as I became older, I appreciated.		During report card times each of us brought our report cards home and mother and father reviewed report cards and made comments about how we were doing in different subjects.	There was always one concern they still had above everything else.	"What kind of grade did you get on comportment?"		Children today have little idea of what the word is, but we understood and there need not be anything that indicated any kind of misbehavior or else we were taken to task.	My father and mother both inquired of the teacher if and when any indication indicated that we might not have been carrying ourselves with the way that we should have.	Going to school beyond the 7th grade  was considered high school.	It was interesting as each one of us finished elementary school, grade 7, everybody in the county attended what was called an Elementary School Connnencement.	That Elementary School Connnencement was held for all of the elementary schools for black children at the Union United Methodist Church, the church that I attended regularly.	It was a very nice occasion to see all of the little girls coming dressed in white dresses and, of course, boys dressed in their best, whatever that happened to be.	While I do not remember any speech or anything that came from any individual, it had the same kind of flavor and activity as our connnencements might have today, for finishing elementary school in those times was equivalent to finishing high school in these times.	In fact, many of the children were as competent in general mathematics, history, writing and that kind of thing, as many of our high school children are today.	However, Harford Country provided no four year high school for black students.	There was an effort at the time, headed by Mr. Dennis Noble, who was the County Supervisor of colored schools, to establish a four year high school for black children.		That effort extended over several years. I know when my oldest sister finished elementary school in 1925, she caught the train at Swollen Creek, which was a train station between Aberdeen and Havre de Grace.		She went to Havre de Grace for two years to the school that Mr. Noble was trying to establish.		Then my parents sent her to Wilmington and the same kind of thing with me when I finished elementary school.	My parents sent me by train, daily, to Elkton, the train fares being paid by my parents.	The tuition, I did not know at that time but later found out, had to be paid by Harford County Board of Education because Harford County Board of Education did not provide a four year high school for its black students.	The emphasis on getting high schools in Harford School was a significant part of my learning, as I was fortunate to accompany my father to many of the monthly meetings that were held by an association known as the Harford County Colored Parent Teachers Association.		That association petitioned the Harford County Board of Education for several years to establish a high school for black youth, but the Board of Education was not convinced, or used that as an excuse.	The idea that not all blacks wanted a high school education; that their attendance was not good; that the blacks in Havre de Grace were in the first high school established at Havre de Grace, whereas the blacks in the Belair area wanted the first high school in the county for blacks to be established in Belair.	The superintendent and the Board of Education used an excuse of, "Well, if you blacks can decide where you want the school, we'll give you one," and that became the excuse for not building one, or not establishing one for some five or six years.	Finally, in 1930 the Board of Education did appoint the first black person, Mr.
Leon S. Roy, to establish the third year of a high school, and started the fourth year in 1931, which was a year behind what was appropriate for me because I graduated from high school in 1931, from [unclear].	Had my parents not believed in education to the extent that they were willing to pay train fare for me to go to Elkton, I too, would have had to wait another year before finishing high school.
I say that with a lot of gratitude because not many parents sent their children out of the county.
There were some, such as Mr. and Mrs. Steven Moore sent their whole family to Baltimore.	Miss Cox's family sent her to Baltimore.	[unclear] family, the
 
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Lees from Abingdon, sent their children to
Baltimore.	The others that had that same burden, but in the meantime at monthly meetings held by this Parent Teachers Association it was a learning opportunity for me because I listened to the persons talk about the need for education.	I listened to the arguments that they were going to present to the Board requesting an education.		I listened to the alibis given by the Board of Education on why they were not providing an education for blacks as they were doing for whites.	Incidently, for the record I want it noted here that the first diploma given a white person in Harford County for high school completion was in 1882 and the first diploma given to a black by the Harford County Board of Education was not until 1932, a difference of 50 years, a half century, and yet there will be persons even now who will say, "Why are blacks doing so poorly," and everything in that vein.		But a half century of cultural deprivation is not easily eradicated.	I would make a note here for paying a tribute to some of the black leaders who were responsible for constantly going to the Board of Education to secure a high school for the blacks.	The president of the County PTA during its first thirteen years was Mr.
Clayton Stansbury.	Mr. Leo Jones in Havre de Grace was the secretary for as many and more years probably fifteen years.	There was a Mr. Benjamin Smith, a Mr. Andrew Wellington who held offices.	A Mr. Harold Coninson from Asbury, Churchville.	Then there were others which included my father, Daniel Williams, my uncle, Mrs. Hannamore from Belair, Mrs. Lilly Dorcey from Perryman, the Runges from Clark's Chapel.
[end of side 1, tape 1]
BM:		Today is Wednesday, November 2nd, 1988 and this is the second recording session with Dr. Percy V. Williams of Havre de Grace, Maryland.	Dr. Williams, in our last interview you shared with us some of your experiences as a child beginning school, peer pressure and the role model that your father lived before you, and you had gotten into education in Harford County, as you had experiences there and observed some of those people who might not have been recognized had it been for your input.	So today we'd like to leave the interview open to your continuing at that point and discussing with us as you recall education in Harford County.
PW:	First, I would like to mention some of the other adults that played significant roles in establishing the high school and making certain that additional books and things were supplied.	There was, among others, Mrs. Lydia Williams from Magnolia, Mr. Carrol Thomson from Churchville, who, incidently, used some of his money that he had saved to buy what we would call now a station wagon to transport children from the Asbury area.	There was also in that area a Reverend Bell, who took a very active role in trying to see that the school was established and going well.	He had some children.
There was a Mr. Issac Washington from Darlington, a Mr. Barry from Rocks.	There was a Smith family from Sedas.	I could go on and, of course, I'm sure I'm not running the risk of doing what persons always do when they attempt to list or identify people, some very important people have been omitted.	But I would certainly say thank you to all of those people who really believed in education.	At the time education was considered very important by many persons, and yet there were many others who were not convinced that it was worthwhile to keep their children in school.	Here I would mention the fact that since there was no high school, children were not required to go to school beyond grade 7, and certainly many used that as an excuse to not send their children any farther.	I would mention next some things concerning the high school I attended.
It was the Elkton Colored High School in Elkton and there were just two high school teachers at the time who were responsible for teaching all of the subjects that were needed.	I would make reference to the fact that high schools were considered either first or second class based upon whether or not they had staff who had certificates to teach the required subjects.	Each student, in order to get a diploma, had to present sixteen units composed of:	English, social studies.	At the time Elkton required then Latin as a foreign language.	There was also requirements for at least two years of high school mathematics, general science, physics.		The other subjects, some of which I don't know whether I can even remember now, but I was pleased.	As I look back upon some things, Elkton was considered a high school of the first class because it did have teachers who were certified to teach all of the subjects required for high school.	That I wasn't fully aware of until sometime later when I discovered that when the Havre de Grace High School was first opened, or opened with a high school principal as such--Mr. Leon Roy was the first teacher sent there as the principal and teacher, but it was not until the second teacher was employed, the second teacher happened to be my wife who was certified in English and social studies and biology.	So that the people who graduated from that school received an academic diploma.	It's strange to think about the persons who graduated at that time getting an academic diploma because much later the school ceased to give academic diplomas and merely gave general diplomas, the one basic requirement being the lack of a foreign language.	I was very fortunate in having two high school people that I felt really cared for people and some of the problems which they encountered.	It might have been that I, too, might have been a drop out had it not been for my father and my mother's pushing me, but also had there not been teachers in the high school whose major emphasis was upon helping young people and for that I will ever be grateful to the late Mrs. Murray Laws and Mr. Charles W. Cowell, who was the principal.	In order that this interview may not continue forever, I ought to mention something about after high school what did I want to do.	I was interested in teaching math in high school and wanted to go to Morgan.	At that time Morgan College because it was owned then by the Methodist Church.
Having started out from the Methodist conference, it was all black, also, a segregated conference within the Methodist Church.	However, the Depression was very strong at the time.	My parents did not have money enough to send me to Morgan, which at that time cost twenty-five dollars a month.	I know some people in these days who wonder what you got for twenty-five dollars, but twenty-five dollars a month was a lot of money in those days.	Since they had spent some money sending me every day by train from Aberdeen to Elkton, that was another reason why they did not have the twenty-five dollars a month.		So I wanted to go to school.	I wanted to teach math and the next best thing was to go to what was then [unclear] Normal School where I could return and teach some math, not on the high school level, but among the children in elementary school.	I had a peculiar reason for wanting to teach math.	I had  been a boy working on a farm and had observed one evening especially, a Saturday evening when all of us were paid, a large number of boys and men.	All  we did for a whole week was we thinned corn, hoed corn, or chopped weeds, or whatever for the great sum of a dollar and a half a day.	I remember my brother and I drove my father's wagon from our home to one of the big farms and after we were paid this nine dollars for a week's work we drove to the nearest store, and carried some other boys.	Some men had walked to this store.	I, being the older, got out to hitch my horse and the others went in the store to get what at that time was a great thing, a pint of ice cream.	By the time I had hitched the horse and gone in, the man in the store was waiting on Uncle Jim Green, an elderly man whose surtitle was uncle because of his age and the respect that we gave him.	At any rate, the clerk in the store, Ann Ulna, was tabulating on a brown bag the cost of each item, and when he finished he told Uncle Jim Green how much the groceries were.	Whereupon, Uncle Jim reached in his overalls and pulled out his money bag and said, "Here you are, Mr. Sleed, just take all the money you want.	Here you are.	Just take all the money you want."	I watched carefully and the amount of money taken was quite different from the figure that he had totaled on his brown paper bag. From that point on, I was going to solve all the problems of blacks by teaching them how to count and figure so that they would not be cheated in the stores.	Little did I know that it could not be accomplished by one person or with just the small amount of math that I would acquire.	At least it gave me something to work for and to strive.	Upon going to Normal School and finishing, returning to Havre de Grace to teach, I still remembered that story and as I tried to teach every child how to add and multiply and do a number of things, I soon discovered that they had many other kinds of problems.	They had problems with reading, with spelling, and problems at home with not enough to eat, not enough clothing and somebody who did not care whether they were successful or not.	Numerous problems that had to be solved or reduced to a minimum before some children would be successful.
 So I recall my first Christmas because the room that I had was small.	I only had 26 children the first year and I visited the homes of each one of them on Christmas.	Not that I could take them any toys or anything, it was just that I wanted to do whatever I could to help.	To my surprise, I guess, many on that first Christmas of my teaching, many who were the children who saw Christmas come but had nothing that I was accustomed to.	Some kind of toy or some kind of gift.	That, too, was partially the result of the Depression.		It also made me more aware of the problems which some of the children faced and gave me a deeper determination to do whatever was possible to help those who needed some assistance. At the same time that all of this was going on, my pay was not what teachers of the other race received for, by state law, salaries of black and white teachers were different.	The salaries for black teachers were sixty-five dollars a month, minus a ten percent cut because of the Depression.	So instead of sixty-five dollars a month, it was fifty-eight dollars and fifty cents.	However, for white teachers, their pay was nine-hundred-and-fifty dollars and the school year for black children, black teachers, 160 days rather than 180 days.	This was a part of the state law.	Tremendous differences and how could one work, realizing that the law made such significant differences.	I guess I was fortunate at the time because that was about the time that black teachers throughout the state of Maryland and many other southern states were trying to get equal salaries.	I remember our Teachers Association sitting and discussing the differences and then going to the Board of Education requesting equal salaries.	I had not taught very long before I was made president of the Teachers Association, and in that capacity I was thrust into a position of leadership, one that I'm not sure that I was ready for, and to some extent frightened.	At that time there was what was known as a State Supervisor of Colored Schools who, for all practical purposes, was a state superintendent of all colored teachers.	He was given the authority in most of the counties and school systems to do almost anything he thought was appropriate to improve the education.	Sometimes  many of used the expression that he tried to put the fear of the Almighty in one's soul.	However, I came along at a time that was very interesting, for the now Chief Justice, Thurgood Marshall, was appearing on the scene.	I remember one of the first lawsuits for equal salaries was held in Montgomery County and because our school had closed for the summer, I had the opportunity to go hear the case without losing any pay.	Otherwise, I would not have been able to go because any time off from school you lost pay for any day, even if you were sick.	There were no such things as sick days or leaves for illness.	In going to Montgomery County, it was a tremendous experience just to hear Chief Justice Thurgood Marshall, who was then the chief lawyer for the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, who had his office in New York.	A marvelous experience as he laid out the law and indicated to the judge the kinds of problems which were being forced upon black teachers.	I repeat again, Attorney Marshall was good for my soul because it then allowed me to see a black man in court who was able to present a case in much better fashion than the white counterpart who was defending the state's school system.	I guess maybe the second case might have been in Calvert County, Anorundo County and a number of other counties, for this was a state law that discriminated against blacks in terms of salaries and other things, but there were some quirks in the law which we did not thoroughly understand.	Everybody had learned while in school, whether it was in normal school or college preparing to be a secondary school teacher, that there was such a thing known as tenure, and once you received tenure, which was two successful years of teaching, the only thing that you could be dismissed for was insubordination, incompetence and two or three other kinds of things.	So some few persons braved the hazards of being the first to test the case or to test unequal opportunities in the courts.		I guess after the Montgomery County situation there was a case from Anorundo County where a man, a high school teacher, was offered a job in Frederick County to be a principal.	The job as principal, of course, paid a little more money and the person jumped to the opportunity to become principal in Frederick County, and things went well the first year.	Beginning the second year this new principal in Frederick County could do nothing right and everything was downhill, a plan that had already been contrived.	So about March of that year in Frederick this new principal was told, "Well, things have been going so bad this year we don't think we'll retain you for another year as principal." "But, sir, you have to.	I have tenure.	I've been teaching ten years in Anorundo County and I have tenure."	"No, you do not have tenure.	You had tenure in Anorundo County, but you left Anorundo County and came to Frederick County, so you lost your tenure.	Whereupon, we don't even have to give you any reason for dismissing you."	So a significant lesson was learned by blacks and many others.	Most of us thought that once you had tenure in a school system it was good for any place in the state, and here was the point I'm trying to make. Many of us then started reading more about the school laws, trying to determine what they were. 
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The blacks in each school system then decided that it appeared that they were not going to get a class action suit, although we knew nothing about the word "class action" at the time.	We simply thought that once you had a case that was won in any one county, it was good for the rest of the state.	Whereupon, several counties, Calvert County, Mrs. Brown and Walter Mills, a second person from Anorundo County and several other places, even Harford County, we had Thurgood Marshall draw up legal papers for us to present to the Harford County Board of Education, each one of us feeling full well then that we were going to have to go to court before the state changed its policies concerning equal salaries.		I well remember holding a meeting with the colored teachers in Harford County and trying to explain to them what we had to do if we wanted equal salaries, and whether or not we really wanted them; whether we were going to be satisfied with anything less.	I shall never forget I felt that it was something that we had to do, but the question was how should we do it because there was a man from Anorundo County that went to Frederick County and he was let go.	Was equal salary, was the court case worthy of everybody filing suit?	So as we discussed it in Harford County, we invited Thurgood Marshall to come from New York to talk with all the teachers in Harford County Schools.	I remember very well that I said to the teachers we were going to have Thurgood Marshall come and talk to us, but when the county supervisor, who was also under pressure not to have a lawsuit, and we asked Thurgood Marshall to come. After talking with the country supervisor he said we ought not do it. So what we would do is do what we thought was appropriate and write, or how should we maneuver?	I recall distinctly making the decision. I was told by the county supervisor to call Thurgood Marshall and tell him not to come to our Saturday meeting, which was the day that we always had any meetings.	I called on the Friday before leaving school, however, I sent him a telegram telling him to come.	I thought I would arrive in Belair for the meeting in time to alert my supervisor about the fact that Thurgood Marshall said that he had to come to Baltimore anyway, so he was going to come and was not honoring my telephone request.	Unfortunately, Thurgood Marshall arrived in Belair for the meeting before I did and the county supervisor wanted to know why I didn't tell him not to come.	Then I explained and had Thurgood say to the whole group that he was on his way to Baltimore anyway, so he decided just to come on anyway.	At any rate, we had this legal document, and what were we supposed to do with it then?	After much discussion, I decided that I was going to sign it.	I then said, "Are there other people in this room besides Percy Williams who want equal salary?" and the second person to sign was Miss Cornelia Ruff, who was a secretary.	And there were then some who said, "Well, that's enough.	You've got the officers."But, again, Miss Ruff and Percy Williams said, "There will be more than two people who will benefit from this, and anybody who doesn't want it, you will not sign.	All who want it should sign and we will go in a court case with all the teachers," and that's how we went, with our petition for equal salaries for black and white teachers in Harford County.	Of course, the next thing that happened.	After this legal petition arrived on the superintendent's desk, whose name was
C. Milton Wright, on Monday after he received it, he was in Percy Williams' classroom at 1:00 and he stayed until 4:00, and wrote up everything that he said and every response that the children gave, which was in preparation for taking some drastic measures against Percy Williams.	It was interesting to note the different kinds of tactics that were played.	I think the good thing that happened was that every teacher, every black teacher, had signed this legal petition and I think that carried much more weight than what happened in many of the other school systems.	By this time, however, there was a lot of print in newspapers throughout the state concerning black teachers strive for---strike black teachers.	We didn't call us black teachers by that time.	That was a nasty word then.	For equal salaries.	So that the state superintendent, who all along apparently had been opposed, found that there was a rising tide of the same efforts from all of. the districts or school systems, and he met with the State Board and somehow--! don't know all the details, but he sent a message to the colored supervisor in Calvert County capitulating, saying that the fight was over.	He wanted a delegation of colored supervisors to meet and see how they could draw up some legislation to abolish the dual system for salaries, the dual salary scale.	I think that  was a noteworthy accomplishment, and along with it went several other things to a greater or lesser extent.		The peculiar and nasty thing that happened, though, and even though the colored salaries were eliminated by law, passed by the General Assembly, there were the hidden kinds of things which were invoked upon the colored teachers.	The law already established that teachers certificates might be rated first or second class.	Any teacher whose certificate was rated first class was placed on the salary scale according to the number of years that they had been teaching.	Any colored teacher whose certificate was rated second class had his or her salary moved up to the beginning salary of white teachers.	In some systems only a third of the colored teachers had their salaries moved up to correspond to the number of years which they had been teaching.	In some systems as many as a half or even two-thirds of the colored teachers had their salaries moved up only to beginning salaries of white teachers.		The thing which determined whether or not their certificate was rated first or second class was a process which the state supervisor of colored schools initiated.	I mentioned earlier he was regarded as a very difficult man who did not believe that colored teachers were equal to those of white teachers, or that he had to give the same amount of courtesy and respect.	For so many it was most unfortunate for they then had to go through more rigid examinations, evaluations, before their salaries were moved from the beginning salary.	They had to work their way up the salary scale just as if they were beginning teachers.		I can recall that when I returned to the school system in 1946, after having spent three years in World War II, I became the Supervisor of Colored Schools in Harford County.	It was then that I discovered a number of colored teachers whose certificates were rated as second place and they had not received a pay scale equivalent to correspond to the number of years which they had been teaching.	So one of my first jobs and opportunities was to try to determine what was needed by each of those teachers so that I could convince the superintendent that they were in fact doing more than just a satisfactory job by performing as a good teacher.	If it would not make this story so long I would want to go into detail on that, but that was a job of a supervisor and I accepted it and found some interesting experiences to talk about among other colored supervisors in other systems throughout the state. I can recall the first person that I was interested in having their certificate change.	I talked to the superintendent about how great I thought the person was and what the person was doing.	He did not accept my word, but sent one of his white elementary supervisors to visit this school and this teacher to see what the person was actually doing.
Fortunately, I had sense enough to have discussed what was going on with the teacher and we had worked together to help prepare for the visit.	Even to this day we sit and laugh about what was done and how it was accomplished.	Basically, making certain that the teacher did an excellent job.	Having returned from the service and been made the supervisor of colored schools, a major concern was what could be done to help our children achieve, a major portion of which I've already addressed which was helping teachers to receive salaries that were equal.	In the meantime, state law had changed so that the number of days for children to attend school was the same for both black and white, 180 days, and a few other things were changing.	People had witnessed a lot of things in the world, discrimination shown for the nasty and evil kind of thing that it was.	The superintendent at this time changed from C. Milton Wright to Charles W. Willis in 1945 and Willis was out to make a name for himself and make some improvements.	Naturally, there were some things he had to do and as he looked around with almost closed eyes, he could readily see the deplorable condition in which the schools for blacks were.	I remember hearing him say on one occasion that the farmers took better care of their cattle than we did for some of our children.		He said this in a mixed audience, saying some of that holds for whites but there was no problem for him to really mean all black schools at the time. The number of schools had changed from 16 to 12.	The Belair Colored School, which included the high school, had children attending school in the Methodist Church kitchen, in the Baptist Church kitchen, in the Farmers Hall, uptown at the Fire Hall and in an old building that had been declared unfit for human habitation for blacks twenty years ago.	It was restored and put into operation.	So it was just a horrible condition for all blacks in Belair, and a similar thing for black children in Havre de Grace.	They, too, attended class in -­
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BM:		-- certainly have planned, and I have taped and played it back.	Let's try about two minutes and we'll check again, Dr. Williams.
PW:		Educating black children has been a major struggle down through the years.	Those who know much about history might recall that there was a federal law which prevented persons from educating slaves or blacks or whatever you want to call them.	However, there were a few persons who dared brave the tradition and customs and did educate some of their slaves or blacks.	It ought to be noted that a common practice by some of the slave masters was to educate the house slaves because they did much to determine the culture and customs of the children in the big house.	In keeping with that theme or concept, public records in the courthouse will indicate that in the section of the county known as Michaelsville there was a school initiated by a Mr. Chago in the Perryman area who gave a tract of land for the school to be erected.	At the time there were some blacks to whom the land was deeded as a board of trustees that later become known as the Harford County Colored School Board.	That group continued to operate from about 1875 until after the World War when the federal government bought land and took over what is now the Proving Ground.	Mixed in with all of this, one needs to be careful to search the records if he is attempting to document the exact dates and times when things were done. All of this, I think, can be found in the courthouse.	I do want to make note that at the same time that this was going on in Harford County, there was known across the whole country a group of people who believed that blacks had been treated poorly and needed to have an additional opportunity.	Growing out, then, of the Civil War was the Freed Men's Bureau and in Harford County there were two or three schools.	One was at Hosanah near Darlington, and another at what is called the Mountain, somewhat near Magnolia and Edgewood area.	That school building, in fact both of those school buildings are still standing, even though quite dilapidated.
There are movements to try to restore portions of those two buildings for their historic value.	At the same time that all of this was going on, there was what I came to realize from listening to older persons talk about the desire on the part of many of the blacks in the late 1880s, 1890s to secure the best education that they could possibly get.	It was something that they felt they had been denied, so getting an education, learning to read and write was considered something very important on the part of many blacks.	There were night schools and opportunities offered by church groups and other agencies to help blacks take advantage of what they had been denied for so long a time.	At the same time that this was going on, there_was the movement to first make certain that elementary education was available to all children, all black children I'm talking about now.	However, there were some, of course, who were not aware of the advantages of learning how to read and cipher, as they talked about it, and they were what I would call hoodwinked into accepting what was being provided by some of the good white people for whom the family might have worked several years and persons whom they trusted and felt they were going to take care of them and they need not worry because they would be taken care of by whatever the family name might have been.	So that you had those who were anxious and eager to learn and go to school, and there were those who felt that they had been taken care of and there was not much need then to learn because they were going to be taken care of.	I would want to emphasis that my experience in listening to persons talk about the struggle for education leads me to believe that the majority of blacks really wanted to get an education and put forth strenuous efforts.	I cite my father as one example who told me on several occasions that as he went to school it was just during the winter months, the last of November or December through January and February.	They had to come out of school and go to work because conditions were very difficult and many in large families were needy. He told me on several occasions how he would borrow books from the principal of his school, Mr. Redman, who violated some school laws in order to help him because he felt that he was able to learn.	The books were borrowed and, of course, returned.	That is a part of what I think is the struggle that many people went through.	They tried to pass that onto their children and the conditions, or the laws at that particular time were such that going to school was a privilege and not all black children were able to take advantage of it because of working conditions and the economy.	I think I have mentioned sometime ago that the length of the school term was different and that came about because of what was known as Cleasy versus Ferguson, which said that blacks need not attend the same schools, in fact, could not attend, but as long they were provided something that was separate but equal to what was given to white children.	So the segregation of school was fostered and persons came to accept that as a way of advancing themselves.
That meant then for Harford County that the black children had the elementary schools, but they were denied the opportunity to go to high schools.	I would hazard to guess that the development of high schools then became a major issue from the late 1920s through all of the '30s.	When I say through the '30s I modify that by saying the struggle to get a high school was a major issue and I think our records are full of the type activities which blacks tried to engage in in order to secure a high school.	In the late 1920s parents from Havre de Grace and Belair seemed to be waging a battle against each other trying to see who could get the first high school located in either of the towns. Whereupon, the board of education and the superintendent used that as an excuse for not establishing a high school in either town.	I recall that as a boy of fifteen I used to travel with my father to what was called the Harford County Colored PTA and that was the major purpose of the establishment of that organization, trying to get a high school for blacks.	As I attended the different meetings with him, it appeared, and I think the board of education's records will substantiate that kind of effort, because whenever a group of blacks would go to the board of education and ask for a school, if that group came from Havre de Grace it was a sure thing that within the next month or two months a group of Belair, and vice-versa, would be going to the board of education trying to get the first high school for blacks established in their particular city.	That became the excuse that the board used to deny high schools for so long.	I remember after traveling with my father for several of the meetings that we were going from one school building to the other holding these monthly meetings.	I remember very well at the meeting in 1929, I think it was a March meeting where we were at the Magnolia School and the Colored PTA members decided that they would not give the board an excuse any longer, but just send a delegation to the board and say, "We don't care where you put the school, but just give us a school."	Following that I think the school was established at Havre de Grace.	It was established at Havre de Grace, I believe, because there were more black children attending what was then the two year high school, even though it did not have a principal.	I would hesitate to say it was not really a high school, but classes were being held by a Mr. Dennis Noble who was the county colored supervisor, whose major responsibility was supervision of the elementary schools and to teach some industrial arts under what was then called the industrial schools.	The state provided a sum of money to pay part of the supervisor's salary and to teach what was called manual training.	Now, in Harford County it was for boys to get this manual training.	In other counties it was a female who taught home economics, but a major activity for those persons was to do whatever they could possibly to do hold students in those two years schools until such time as they had demonstrated that blacks really were interested in going to school.	I say that in a facetious manner because that was only an excuse, and certainly without anybody issuing diplomas there wasn't much to hold students in the school.	So in September, 1930 Mr. Leon Roy was sent to the Havre de Grace community to continue what Mr. Noble and some elementary teachers had started, holding classes for the first two years.	That two year school had Mr. Roy for one year, and the second year, after Mr. Roy came, Miss Bernice Johnson, who later became Bernice Williams, was sent as the second teacher.	That then gave the school all of the required subjects which were needed in order to issue a high school diploma.	I would want the record to show that the first high school class then to receive a diploma, that is the first black to receive a diploma from Harford County was in 1932, which was exactly fifty years after the first high school diploma had been issued to white high school graduates.		I say that because it's worth noting that many persons now feel, or many persons have said, "Well, we have integration now and everybody ought to be doing the same kind of thing.	All students ought to be learning equally well and if they don't it's because of some kind of inferior something."	I want to make the record indicate that one does not overcome fifty years of cultural deprivation and just overnight say "everything's equal" and, in fact, things were not equal and were not designed to become equal.	Cleasy versus Ferguson was still operating even though the high school had been upgraded to what was called a first group high school.	The state law used the term first and second group high schools based upon the number of students and the quality of the programs.		Even though the first colored high school was established in 1930, it gave diplomas in 1932. 
school in their area because it was very difficult for children to get to school from one end of the county to the other, realizing that blacks lived as far north as the Pennsylvania line, the Mason-Dixon Line, and as far south as Jappa and the Baltimore County line.	So there was a great span.		There was not any public means of transportation.	In either 1934 or '35, Belair High School issued its first diploma to blacks and at that time Mr. Steven P. Moore was the first principal there.	The school was fully acredited I think one year later, after he became principal.	Getting enough black students to stay in high school was a second kind of problem. First of all, there was the economy and this was during the time of the greatest depression that our country has known.	Many families did not have work, did not have money and children who were fourteen or fifteen years of age, even though high school was the appropriate thing for them to attend, families were in very dire circumstances and it was a difficult time to convince parents that it was worth their while to make the kinds of sacrifices necessary for the children to attend school.	Mrs. Fanny Jackson and Percy Williams were two people known as field agents for the County PTA and part of our responsibility, for which we weren't paid, was to encourage parents from the several communities to keep the children in school.	The two of us were anxious to do what could be done to convince parents that it would pay dividends if they were willing to make the sacrifice.	In the meantime, there were some parents who continued to send their children to Downington, which was a private school in Pennsylvania, or Bordentown in New Jersey, again, another private institution where parents had to pay for room and board for the students.	Mr. Clifford Holland, Oliver Holland from the Havre de Grace area attended Bordentown, New Jersey.	Mr. Oliver Dorcy and Mr. Ben Munroe, Benjamin Johnson from Perryman, Mrs. Gees, the Lee family from Abingdon, and of course the Moore family from Belair were persons who sent their children out of the county because they believed that education was important.	They struggled to keep the high schools going and providing the appropriate education was not an easy one because the great Depression did not permit the superintendent kinds of funds or the board of education to have the necessary to establish high schools,or give them all of the kind of equipment.	So the major task of the County PTA continued to be one of giving whatever kind of assistance they could to help support the school with equipment and textbooks and other kinds of things.	So that the task was an interesting one, and yet a very difficult one because there was on possible way for parents to do what some of them had to do and pay for the transportation for the children and other kinds of things that were necessary to have the children in these two schools compete.	As a consequence, not only did this happen in Maryland, but in many other places across the country, there was then the great yearning for equal opportunity and before long we saw things moving in the direction of some kind of legal suit, where a decision ended in 1954 known as Brown versus Topeka, Kansas and some other things, which I'm sure those persons who are interested can find out.	Once that decision was handed down, and naturally there were parents who had suffered long enough so that they felt they ought not to continue to be denied the kinds of things which were given in other schools, I think there's no doubt in anyone's mind who might have gone through that period to know that one of the greatest handicaps was the textbooks and the kind of equipment.	The record will reveal at just a slight glance that the fact that the textbooks in many instances were those that had been used by white children and discarded, in some instances with only a portion of the pages remaining. condition
 That, of course, intensified the for blacks once the Supreme Court decision had been handed down to show their eagerness what had been denied them since the Civil War, and that was to attend any of the best schools.	In Harford County the law was accepted and by all blacks.	A few whites accepted the decision readily, but many did not accept it and looked for ways to get around what the Supreme Court said must be done.	Several cases were established, or several cases were filed with the federal courts.	Among those were a court case by Steven Moore for his son.	Mr. Moore was a believer in equality, like many other persons, and felt that there was no reason to wait or delay the kind of thing which the Supreme Court said every child was entitled to.	Two other cases, Mrs. Moorehead from the Aberdeen area; Mr. Peditt from the Aberdeen area, are cases that stand out in my mind where the parents filed suit in order to get their children to attend what was then known as the former white schools.	Now, the board of education's and the superintendent's one to delay integration could, and they adopted attitude towards this was as long as they possibly a plan where the children in grades 1, 2 and 3 schools.	I guess might be started to integrate the that started about in 1959, and then they would add one grade a year until it had reached the 12th grade.	So that meant nine years after having started with the first three grades, and it would just take that many more years before they were going to do any integrating.	The people that I mentioned, Mr. Steven Moore and Mrs.Moorehead and other persons were not satisfied with that.	So that the superintendent, Charles Willis, was taken into court at least three times and before the same judge, and finally in 1964 the judge ordered the superintendent and the Harford County Board of Education to desegregate the schools forthwith, in spite of all of the delaying tactics which they had.	One need not emphasize greatly the fact that even when the integration was ordered by the courts, there were different kinds of tactics used to make it difficult for children and parents to attend what had been all white schools.	The placement of teachers and the extent to which children were not permitted to participate fully in all kinds of activities, in the band or in cheerleading and other kinds of activities where they just were not permitted to participate on some kind of flimsy excuse saying that they did not meet the standard or whatever.	But it was just a flimsy excuse.	Not only were the courts involved in this, but the United States Office of Education on Civil Rights was involved children had moved schools, there was to a great extent.	Once the to what was called the all white the problem of not employing any additional black teachers for a two or three year period, even though there were qualified blacks and even though there was a shortage of teachers at that particular time.	The board of education and the superintendent decided that they were going to make it just as difficult as possible. I think the records with the Maryland State Department of Education and the Office of Civil Rights can be used to verify the kinds of things which was going on.	I should mention here that the County NAACP played a very significant role in what was happening in Harford County at that time.	I think one person that I want this record to show, a Mrs. Juanita Jackson Richland, who was a lawyer and president of NAACP for the state of Maryland, played a significant role, not only in Harford County, but throughout the whole state. All of us cannot give her credit enough for the kinds of things which she did in order to move the desegregation of schools forward.	I guess I need to stop for just one moment.
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I had mentioned earlier the efforts and kinds of things that were done to delay desegregating the schools.	I think it's worth noting the kind of activity that was employed by the superintendent and the board of education.	Any parent who wanted to have her child, his child transferred to what was termed a white school, they had to make a formal application, and the formal application was filed with the principal of the school, either the Havre de Grace Consolidated School or the Central Consolidated School.	 It was the principal's responsibility to make a decision on whether or not the child should be transferred.	I'm not quite sure of what was in anyone's mind about why a child ought not be transferred, yet that was the procedure established.	It was truly nothing more than a   tactic to intimidate blacks and keep them from going to what was formerly the all white schools.	I recall that I felt confident that we at Central, and Havre de Grace, too, developed the kinds of schools that we had using all the resources that were available.	There was a tremendous difference in the kinds of resources.	Even when Central Consolidated School was established in 1950, during the first year we did not have a microscope, a lot of science materials to do an adequate job.	The first year might have been a delay supplies, but certainly in ordering materials and after that the number of microscopes that we were given was roughly one-tenth of what was provided in the Belair High School that was only three miles away.	I mention that kind of thing because when parents came to me asking that their children be transferred, some had the peculiar notion because they had heard someone say that the school was better.	They could not give any real reason.	I would counsel with the parents and say, "If you want your child transferred to what was called then the white school, I will approve it under certain conditions.	All that you want or the major thing that you want they should go to the school that you think is better.	I will approve that as long as you indicate what I think is a reasonable justification for making the request. You want certain things because of what you believe and I can accept what you believe.	I cannot accept any request that says 'I want my child to go to the white school because it's better' or 'because the teachers teach better.'	All that's necessary for me to sign your request and approve it is for you to cite a fact that we can both identify and document. These are the kinds of things:	Number one, the school is closer," and it should be noted here that we had children traveling from as far as away as Edgewood and Pennsylvania children had Joppa to the south, and as far as the line on the north.	So that many of the traveled by two or more high schools to get to our school, or "I will approve your request if you simply say the school has more equipment.That we can document, but we cannot document any kind of statement 'because I think the school is better' and that kind of thing, or 'that my child will learn more."'	I recall distinctly having one year spent considerable time trying to discuss somethings with some of the parents who came requesting that their children be transferred.	I simply read whatever might have been on the application.		I recall that there were a couple who said such things as "I think the school is better," and "My child will get a better education."	We agreed, after discussing some of those things, that I would approve it.		In fact, I had no reason not to approve it, and never intended to disprove or not to approve any request if the parents wanted the children to go to another school.	That was up to them.	I was only going to make it easy for approval with the kind of statement that I felt could be documented.	However, at the close of the school year, which was the time that the children made their transfers, I had thirteen children whose parents had made requests.	I did counsel with all of those parents and went through their forms and carried the request for transfers to the involved in a struggle and that the board had to approve all of these, and the board had already met that year.	The June meeting was already over and I was at fault for bringing those approved transfers in so late.	I recall simply letting him get his anger down a little and I simply, within myself, smiled and said, "I knew that you did not want the children transferred and I was trying to do exactly what you wanted to do.	So I took time after school at night to counsel with the parents, to get them to see the board's point of view, but they ignored it and I had no alternative but to bring you these thirteen requests."
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Once the Harford County Board of Education had decided to comply with the court order and children were permitted to go to the nearest school, each school had its territorial district.	All the children living within that given territory then attended the school.	The problem that was difficult for some children a new experience. teachers. There and some parents was that this was It was also new for the had been a lot of parental cooperation in the former segregated schools and because of this parental cooperation, many of the children did what I'd like to say had a different code of conduct, which they did not follow once they got into the integrated schools.	I think this came about for two reasons.	There was not the close cooperation between the home and the school. Secondly, I think there had been an attitude on the part of some white teachers especially, that they did not quite know how to work with some of the children to insist that they perform.	In the same manner, there were in the white schools some behavior on the part of white children which black teachers and principals would not have condoned or accepted under any kind of circumstances.	I'm talking about what students and parents told me, instances of fire tossed in the trash can in the boy's lavatory, or someone going by a teacher's room, opening a door

[end of side 1, tape 2]
 
PW:	-- in the segregated have known something schools because parents would about it. I believe that for the most part, their children achieve. That parents, whether white or black, want to do what's right and go ahead and then to me represents one of the difficulties which many of the black children
encountered and adopted from what they saw going on.	There was not the same kind of cooperation on
the part of white teachers.	I say this not because I think white teachers did not care.	I think it was just the case that they did not know how to cope with some of the things and felt that they had to go an extra mile to allow some deviant behavior for one reason or another.	At the same time that was going on, another kind of behavior where for some unrecognizable reason black children were given the greater number of suspensions or suspected situations or suspected attempts to be naughty.	By the word "naughty" I mean not mannerly.	There were instances where a large number of blacks were sent out of classrooms for "he doesn't know how to act," or "his manners are poor," or such inexcusable reasons that it's very difficult for us, as we look back.	That situation still exists and is one of the kinds of things that we still have to cope with.
I'm trying to think of the exact word that I ought to use here for what the code [tape turned off] calls --I cannot think of the exact word I want to use at this particular time.	Many children have been suspended, sent out of the classroom, principal's office, with a statement sent to the that "he's been disruptive," and it's only a matter of the child might have said something and the teacher had to interpret what was said as disruptive, or using a smart remark, or whatever that the teacher believed was inappropriate.	The next biggest problem, I guess, that we experienced after the desegregation was the fact that black teachers were not given the opportunities to be promoted. I guess the first thing I should mention in referring to this, not long ago that for a period no black teachers were hired, even though there was a shortage of teachers. Following that, black teachers then suffered the fact that no black teachers were promoted, whether they were qualified or not. In 1970, when Dr. Lou Vernon became superintendent following Dr. Willis, I think there were two assistant principals made the first year, and then for a number of years no blacks were promoted to even assistant principals or principals or supervisors, or anything until there was a complaint filed with the federal government charging the whole
system with its discriminatory practices. In 1974 and '75 the US Office complaint with Harford of Civil Rights lodged a County School System, and at that time I think there was an additional black principal made at one of the middle schools. Then for a number of years principal, one black we had one black elementary elementary supervisor, but for some eight, ten or more years there was not a single black high school principal.	The reason was we hired the most qualified persons available and the answer that is the according to whose most qualified person available, standard? Anyone can say "according to my opinion X person is the most qualified," and who can dispute it if that's his opinion. If he--and I'm going to use a word which I rarely use--if he's a racist who is determined that he's not going to promote any black person, a racist attitude then is what makes one person more competent and more qualified than the other person. That existed and only after pressure was applied did this system employ a black high school principal who is now Mr. Bowens, principal of the Harford County Vocational Technical School.	If one were to read some of Williams the newspaper articles after 1984 when Percy became a member of the Board of Education, one will find some of the kinds of complaints which center around the idea of promotions. In fact, the policy manual had a statement in it which said that positions idea was need not be advertised and Percy Williams that it would be impossible for blacks to know about advertised.the positions if they were never Then after much discussion and debate, Percy Williams insisted in several meetings that all positions complaints should be advertised and they lodged in board meetings against the superintendent for his failure to appoint blacks to positions promoted. which he felt blacks should have been As one member of the Board of Education of one race it was very difficult to convince the other six members that the superintendent was not giving all persons an equal opportunity. That debate lasted about three years and it finally ended after the state superintendent wrote the Harford County superintendent indicating that the policy statement under which the system was operating may not have said openly "it's alright to discriminate," but the mere fact that the policy statement said that positions need not be advertised and if they were not advertised that gave the impression to all that they were not wanted on an equal basis.	You better shut that off.
[tape turned off]
I would feeling want to close this tape with the general regarding the Harford County School System. While no one enjoys being singled out, being denied an equal chance, as I think happened with blacks, I would not want anyone to feel that I was a bitter person or that what might have happened, even from the days when my parents had to pay for my railroad tickets to go from Aberdeen to Elkton; or that I had to go Degree to Virginia in order to get a Bachelor's in elementary education because Maryland was not granting such; or any of the other things which might Those have happened on a discriminatory basis. denials provided an opportunity for me to be more inquisitive about the laws, provided an
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opportunity for me to investigate and be more thorough in the activities in which I was involved. I would not want anyone to say that I appreciated those activities or that I thought they were good. I just want persons to realize that in the struggle of life there comes times when persons are not
treated on an equal basis, but that one cannot stoop to the same kind of practice and win the battles.
If I've been successful in accomplishing a few things, I think I have tried to stay above those small things which might have been discriminatory and always worked towards a higher goal, and I think I'm the better person for having done that.	I guess I experienced an incident once while working at the
State Department of Education where the personnel
officer went down by the Deputy Superintendent's office saying some things about Percy Williams.	I
remember the Deputy Superintendent coming to my office and repeating what he had told the personnel officer.	That what he had he, the personnel officer, witnessed indicated that was a much smaller man than Percy Williams.	I had no idea of what had been said, but I was aware of the attitude of the personnel officer.	I simply, cannot--as was said by someone again, repeat, one else--keep someone down without staying down with them.	There still is much to be done and I thank God that I've had good
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health and strength and a degree of mental functioning that allows me to discern the difference between the good and the evil, and to have been a part of the struggle and helped it to move forward so that it is better than what it was when I came upon the scene. Okay.
[End of Interview]