Interview with Cornelia Ruff

              ORAL HISTORY TAPE # 62
INTERVIEW WITH CORNELIA RUFF
Interview by Celestia Simmons, Harford County Library,Narch 17, 1981
Simmons: Okay, whenever.
Ruff: I was born in Bel Air. My parents -- Mr. and Mrs. Steven Ruff. My brothers -- I had three brothers, and two sisters. There were six of us. I was the -- Of course, my mother lost two babies. That made me the fifth child In the family. I had two brothers. No, I wasn't, I'm wrong. I had two brothers and a sister, and I was the third. See, I was the next one, I mean I was the fourth child. See, I was the fourth child in the family, and then the others came after me. We were just an ordinary family.
CS: Did you live in this house?
CR: No, we lived up town on, what was then called Hallett Street,
7
but it's Lee Street today; it's called Lee Street now. Up
there on Lee Street there were two stone houses, one on the corner, and the next one to it [is where] Miss Lee lived. And then there was another house on the other side of us, and on
11 
flowering .	went out to Main Street. And
lived there, then where home is across the street from us. That would be one, two, three, three homes across the street. And in those early days, when we lived up there, of course, there were unpaved streets and unpaved highways too. We just had a nice, happy time up there. But as the town grew, and homes were being built, then we had to move, or else buy the home. We were renting, and we had to move or else buy the home in which we were living. And my mother preferred to move, rather than to stay up
 
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in that section. Then, they were beginning to, the [unclear] --
Folks were moving in; it was rather noisy. So we found this house down here. This home down here belonged to a colored lady,
Mrs.	Probably you know Mr. [	] Whittington? 
CS: Yes, I do.
CR: Well, it belonged to his aunt. And we came down here, first as renters, and then later on she wanted to get rid of the house, and we purchased it from her. And, of course, after we purchased we made some improvements in it. And we've lived here ever since. But my first years, of course, were spent up town. As I said to my sister the other day, every time I have a dream about my early life, I always go up town; I never dream that I'm down here. I always dream that I'm up town. Of course, I don't know anything about my two older brothers. I don't know them. They died in infancy. And my sister who was two or three years older than I,
we were the two oldest, then were two boys.	But I played with 
my brothers, rather than with my sister. She was the oldest girl and oldest living child, you see, and she, I suppose, liked to be to herself, and she stayed to herself, and I played with my brothers. And with them, I was just as tomboyish as they were. I liked to ride bicycles, liked to go ice skating, and all of those other things that boys usually do, you know, and I stayed with them. But I was always sickly. I was born, I imagine I was born sickly, I don't know. But I was always sickly. The doctor, he told my mother that I needed to stay out in the fresh air all the time. And that was one of the reasons why I couldn't go to school, when it was time for me to go to school in the city, to go to high school. I couldn't attend high school regularly
 
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because of my health. And even after I started teaching, I missed a great deal of time. I think you said they gave on the record that I taught 48 years. Well, I was in the system 48, but I was out a whole year, out of school to about two months. I was in the hospital half that time; the other part of that time I was at home. And that prevented me from finishing. I had only had two years of high school, and I wanted so desperately to go back, of course, to high school. But my doctor said that I had to stay out in the country, on account of my health condition. So, I had a nice teacher, his name was Stanley, James T. Stanley. And he was so sorry that I
"C
couldn't finish high school, that he said, Cornel, you come down here every afternoon." He told me what time, three-thirty, "Come to school, and I'll help you with your work.
CS: He taught up here? Did he teach here, or did you have to go down to Baltimore?
CR: Oh, he was the teacher. He was my principal in here even before I went to Baltimore to school. See, when I went to Baltimore I spent two years in the high school there. And then I was sick, and I had to come home, and my doctor said I shouldn't go back. And, of course, in those days your parents listened to what the doctor said. I wanted to go, but my mother wouldn't let me go. And therefore, my teacher was still here, Mr. Stanley (I'd rather call him Saunders), and he knew how anxious I was to go to school. And he would always encourage me to go, because he told me he thought that I had the making of a good teacher. He used to say that to me in school, you know. So he told me if I would come down to the school between half past three and four, and be there
 
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when school let out at four o'clock, bring with me my books that I had brought with me from high school, he would help me. And he did. In the fall of 1911, he said,tCornel, the teachers are going to meet here, and they're going to have an examination. Mr. Wright always gives an examination, a test to the teachers. He said)''ou1d you like to take the test, to just see what we've done, in this time that you've been coming to me!" So I said yes, and I took the test, and I passed. I passed the test, but I didn't think I would get in because of two things: I hadn't completed high school, and my age.
CS: How old were you then?
CR: I wasn't past sixteen or seventeen. So Mr. Stanley said,"Don't worry about that. I'll talk to Mr. Wright." So Mr. Wright said,
"There's a vacancy up to Rocks. • And would you like to go up there, and teach in this lady's place? She's sick and won't be back until after Christmas. Would you like to go in her place?" And, of course, I was ready to jump at that. I said yes, but I'll have to consult my mother, because I knew, you know, how she felt about it. She had all the world? with me, and I didn't know whether she was going to say yes or no. So when I went home for lunch, I asked her, and she said -- I said,"Mr. Stanley says he's coming up to talk to you." She said, "Well, I guess so."
So I sat down	casually. And I went back all elated and told 
them that I could go, that my mother said I could go up there and take a try, have a try at it. So Mr. Stanley came up to see my mother and talk to her, and I found myself going out to the Rocks.
CS: How did you get up there?
 
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CR: Well, my mother inquired about the Rocks,- because she didn't know anything about it. But fortunately for us, one of our neighbors was from the Rocks. That is, her parents had lived up there. And she had told my mother how you could get up there, go up on a train. Then they had a train from Bel Air up there. See, they used to call it the Ma and Pa train, Maryland and Pennsylvania train. So she told my mother how I could get there. And we contacted Mr. Jensen, the person that was in charge in those -- what they call them -- trustees. He was a trustee of the school. And he was to meet me, which he did. And I went up there, and [laughs] he looked at me so strangely when
I got off the train, He said, "Is this Miss Ruff?"	I said, 
"Yes." I was trying to act like a woman. I said, "Yes, and I've come to teach." So he said, "All right. They told us that there'd be a teacher that would come up here in place of the -- and would stay with us until Christmas, until after Christmas. But I didn't know you were coming." And he said, "You look like a person --' He was from North Carolina, and he says, "You look like a person from North Carolina, and I could have sworn it was this girl and her name is Roxanna," he called her last name. Her name was Roxanna, so he said, "I'm going to call you Roxanna." And from then on he called me Roxanna. And when I went up to the house, they had a granddaughter. So when I went in, Florence
looked at me and said, "Is this the teacher?" And the grandfather said, "Yes." And she said, "Well, I'm not going to school anymore." And the grandmother said, "Yes you are, yes you are." So Florence and I became good friends. She
 
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called me Roxanna all the time, just like her grandfather had called me. And I just called her Florence. And she didn't. She went to school for two days, and then -- So I went down to the -- He took me to the school. And I had only what Mr. Stanley had told me. I didn't have no idea what to do. But Mr. Stanley had told me some things that I was supposed to do. And I'm not too sure, it's been so long, I know I didn't have more than ten or twelve children there, who came to school. So Mr. Johnson stayed with me until we got settled. And they had an organ in the school, and I played the organ. That was wonderful for them to have music, you know. And I asked them did they know some piece that was from
I don't know whether it	Anyhow, they knew it, 
and I played it, and they sang. Mr. Johnson stayed with me until we opened up. And after we opened up, Mr. Wright came in, and he was pleased that I was pleased and the children all were, "Miss Ruff, Miss Ruff, Miss Ruff." And he explained to me about the roll book, how to arrange my roll, and so forth. And he started me off that way. But he told me I had to have at least fifteen all enrolled, and a daily attendance of eleven. And if I didn't keep them up -- He was assigned there because
Mr. Johnson was	And If I didn't keep then up, of 
courseI couldn't hold the school for the lady who was sick. She had to have that number. And when the word got around that they had a teacher, then they came and I guess I had about seventeen or eighteen, the highest number. I had old ones and young ones. I had boys in there who were older than I. And, of course, Florence and I were around the same age. But she only
 
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stayed one day so I couldn't count on Florence. So school began up to Rocks, ' and I taught up there for a number of years. Not too long, I wasn't too long up there, because there was a vacancy down to Fairview, Forest Hill. And Mr. Wright asked me if I'd like to go down there. And I said yes. But during the time that I was up there, when I cane to Eel Air to the
office, Mr.[	] Anderson, who was Mr. Wright's
secretary, said, "You haven't finished high school, have you?" I said no. He said, "Why don't you go to school, summer school?" And then he told me about summer school. And he said, "You can finish up your education by going to school." And he told me where I could go. He gave me the name of the school. Of course, that pleased me, and my mother wrote -- That was up to Cheney ? in Pennsylvania. And I found out that that was just the place to go because I learned the foundation of teaching up there. So I went to Cheney and kept on going to Cheney for about three or four summers. And after I had spent my time at Cheney, and I was being promoted, all the time I had been coming back to Eel Air -- I had to take the examinations. They required me, since I was going to try to stay in the system, they required me to take examinations. And you were graded, at that time they graded
the teachers	first, second, and third class. I was put in 
the third class, because I hadn't finished, you see. When I took the first examination, I moved up to the second class. Because I had been to summer school, and I had learned some of the rudiments of school. II had observed the teachers up there, and noticed what they did, and so forth, -- So when I took the examination, I got up into second class. And then I kept on
 
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going to surer school, each summer. And the next time I took the examination, I was into first class. And I was so happy then. And I was learning, learning how to do two things: how to teach, and the background of education. My subjects, you know. And I took the subjects that were necessary for me, like Pyschology and those sort of things that were necessary for me to take. And when I got done with those, they graded me as being a first-class teacher, that meant that I had completed my high school. And you know I was the happiest person -¬So I said to my mother, "I'm now first class, and I've completed my high school work, and I'm going to apply to MorganCollege to see if I can't get into Morgan College. And she encouraged me. My mother encouraged me all the way. So I made an application to Morgan College, but I didn't have my diploma.
But I met Mr	I Wilson, who was the registrar. And 
I told him my sad story, and how I had worked, and why I didn't finish, and so forth. And he had a consultation with the proper persons in authority at the Buliward. ( And they looked up my records, and they recommended me to take college work. And then I registered at Morgan College. But I couldn't stop to go to Morgan College, as the students usually do. I had to take it through the summer courses. And Mr. Wilson was very nice, he was lovely to me, because he told me the subjects that I needed, how many credits I would need, and what subjects to take. And those subjects I took. And I struggled along in advance ' work until 1940. I had finished my college, and was ready to get my first degree. And you know I was -- But the saddest thing about it all is (I often think about it), my mother passed [away)
 
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before. And I had said to her, "When my name is called, you are going to be there, of course." She said, "You know I will." And I said, "And I'm going to ask Mr. Wilson ahead of time if I can give you my diploma." And he told me I could. And I said, "And when they call my name, I'm going to call for you and let them give you my diploma because you deserve it." And she was so tickled over that, you know. But my mother's health then was failing, so she didn't live to see me get my first degree.
After I got that I was still hungry [laughs] and wanted to keep going. I made application up to NYU. I went up to New York University, and I was accepted up there. And I kept on working up there, and in between I went to different schools. I didn't get everything up there. But whatever I needed, I would go -- Of course, I went every year to Delaware --
CS: State or University?
CR: University -- I think they called it State University, or something like that. I spent about a year and a summer over there, taking different courses, because I knew what was required. And I went over there, outside of Morgan College. And I kept on struggling until I had this letter from NYU telling me that I was eligible then for my Master's degree. And I received my Master's degree. And by that time, my health wasn't too good, and I was getting older, and had been in the system so long, and had been teaching all the time -- You see, I taught all the time that I was in school. I was earning my
education.	I was teaching, because I didn't have money to -- 
So during that time, I met up with Miss Roberta] Ross.
 
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And she came down to Havre de Grace because she too was substituting for a lady who married. And we became friends, and the two of us worked together. And we said, after we met each other, that we were going to give money, when we earned enough, we were going to give a scholarship to a deserving child. She was teaching one place, and I was teaching in another, but our cases were similar. Only I was the sick person, but her mother was the sick person in her case. She couldn't finish on account of her mother. So we said we would do that. Well, when Central High School was opened, and she came to Central -¬The first month we were there, the take was high enough for us to say, "Oh, now's the time to help somebody else." And that
was in 1952. So I said to Berta,	"How much shall we give?" 
And she said, "I don't know. What do you give for scholarships?" I said, "I don't know. Don't call it a scholarship then. We won't call it a scholarship. We'll just give to help." So we
told, I told Dr.	] Williams. I said, "Miss Ross 
and I want to give to a deserving student." And he said, "That's fine."
CS: Was this the principal?
CR: He was the principal, Dr. Williams was the principal at Central at that time. And I said that we wanted to give because this was the first time we had seen a check that looked like money. So we always said the first time our salary was increased, we were going to do that. So he said, "Well that's fine, that's wonderful, and we'll call it the Ruff and Ross Scholarship." And I said, "Well, it's not a scholarship. I don't know what you'd call it, because we are only giving twenty—five dollars.
 
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And he said, "That's all right." "That's all right," he said. "Twenty-five dollars." And we gave the twenty-five dollars. And finally it went on from there up to -- Berta died in the meantime. And so I said to the members of the committee at the school, "I'm going to increase it and make it fifty dollars. I'll give in the memory of Berta." Before Berta passed [away], -- Do you want this information?
CS: Yes. Sure.
CR: Before Berta passed, she said, "Neel" (they called me Neel), "let's give to the school a hundred dollars." And I said, "All right. We'll give that. We'll make our donation fifty dollars a year. And we'll put $500 in the bank, and that's for the continuation, after we are gone." We never thought about integration. We weren't looking for that. And we thought we would put this $500 in the bank. Well that money would last at least ten years, we thought, at fifty dollars a year, after our deaths. What was that in? Around -- She passed and in (I'll get my years straight now) 1954, I think it was, we found
out that --	1964, it was 1964 out at the school, we found out 
there was going to be integration. And we would have to then go with the whites, you know. And there's our $500 we had in the bank for the deserving student from Central, and it wasn't going to be called Central anymore. We had to change the name.
So Mr. [	] Davis said to me (he was on the committee 
at the school; we had a scholarship fund called the Central Consolidated Scholarship fund), "I'm sorry they are going to disband. We have to disband, but I think this should continue." And he said, "It would be nice, Miss Ruff, if you would be our
 
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president." And I said, "Oh no." And Mrs. [	II Greene,
Rev. Greene's wife, said, "Oh yes, we want you to stay with us, and you be the president, and we'll find places to meet." See, they had to find another meeting place. And they had to have a name. And she said, "We have to have a name, so I'm going to call it Ruff and Ross Scholarship Fund." That's how it got its name, Ruff and Ross. "Because," she said, "You two were the first and only colored teachers who ever gave that T have ever heard have given any money. Now I have been around here all my life in Harford County, and the teachers have been nice to the children, but they haven't gone that far." And I said, "Well twenty-five dollars wasn't too much." And she said, "That's all right. It's more than they gave, and you did go up to fifty dollars. So I'm going to call it Ruff and Ross." I said, "Miss Ross is dead, and I don't want my name -- I said dead people, it would be all right for them, but not for a live person to have his name on it." She said, "It's Ruff and Ross Educational Fund." So, it stayed that way. And someone else said, "Yes, and we are going to have it incorporated.". Arid they did. Then it was called Ruff and Ross Educational Fund Incorporated. So when we were disbanded, we hadn't any place to go. And we didn't know just what we were going to do. We [unclear]
[end of side one, tape one]
My life story --
CS: It's very interesting. So you had a lawyer tell you?
CR: We had a lawyer. And this lawyer made out the -- we told him
the objective of the scholarship, why we wanted to have the scholarship. It was to motivate, it was for motivation. We
 
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We wanted to motivate the boys and girls who came out of high school, we wanted to motivate them to continue their education. And because of that we had the scholarship fund. And after we were properly incorporated and all, with the officers, then we began working on the Ruff and Ross Scholarship Fund. And our chairpersons were excellent ones. We had -- I was sick again,
and Mr. [	] Dorothy' had to be (He's the
). Mr. Dorothy took my place, because he was one of
the members. He took my place as president. He was vice
president, and he was now called acting president. And I didn't
go to the meetings for about three or four years. I wasn't able
to go. I was sick, half sick all the time. And those officers
carried on the Ruff and Ross Scholarship Fund without my
presence. They were just that interested in it, concerned. And
they were dedicated persons and efficient too. So they carried
on the work for me (I always say that). And still to this day,
I appreciate what they did for me at that time, and ever since
we've had the Ruff and Ross organization. Leonard Jones,(do you
know him?) was made the chairperson for the scholarship fund.
You know Violet Scott?
CS: Yes.
CR: Well, she was made the chairperson for the program, and they have
done a marvelous job, both of them. To the others, the secretaries,
I can't leave out Miss Mary Vaughn, Vaughn-Berry? (because she was
Mary Vaughn at first). And then we had -- In fact all of them
have helped. And as I told them one time, when we met, I said,
"You've not only worked with me, but you've worked for me." And
they carried on the work, because T wasn't able to go. And they
 
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did everything. And [pauses] is it necessary for me to tell you all this?
CS: It's very interesting. This is the first -- [both laugh]
CR: And we carried that on for a long while. And then we started paying a little more; we were making more. I must say this, though. We had the alumni. They said, "Well, Miss Ruff, you gave to us when we couldn't help; now we are going to give to you." And I thought that was such a lovely statement, when
Mae	and the boys told me that. They said, "So we don't want 
you to pay." See, I still gave my fifty dollars every year, just the same. "We don't want you to do that." And the alumni said, "We'll do it." But I still paid my fifty. And they worked, and you know some years, when they would have their fair, they would bring in ten, eleven, twelve hundred dollars. And all of that was put into our treasury, see, and therefore we were able to give scholarships to the students. And we said at the beginning, since there was integration, colored children would be all over the county, we would place, make available two scholarships to each of the high schools. And we did that. At that time there were seven high schools, yes there were seven high schools, and we gave, had a program, under Mrs. Scott's supervision, because she was the chairperson. And we would have a member from the board of education. They would
come down. That was Mr. [	] Neeley.	Do you know 
him?
CS: Yes.
CR: He was a former member of the board. I think his number of years funclear] was seven. He's not a member of the board now,
 
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of the board of education. And he would always come, and Leonard was helping him. And he would make a nice little speech, and present the children with a, just with a slip of paper. At first we just had a slip of paper telling the recipient that you [were] entitled to this hundred dollars (it was a hundred then), and you would go to the school of your choice, if you make a "C" grade. And you must make a "C" grade by the mid term. Then we will send this hundred dollars to your school. And that's what we did for a while. So later on, with the help of the alumni, we were able to increase it to $150. But we still had the same form. In June we'd always have the Ruff and Ross Day, they called it. At this time we would have an educational program, plus the awarding of the, what I guess you'd call little certificates, anyhow, announcements of the acceptance, to they that were the recipients. So we have done that ever since. In the last few years, however, the alumni went on its own. They had their charter, and they didn't sever themselves from us, but they didn't give us the cooperation and help. I don't say cooperation, let me say help, not cooperation, because they did cooperate with us. But they didn't give us the financial help that we had been receiving. But we were able to make up for that by having affairs of our own. At one time we had a bingo, and we cleared $385. And we have a lovely committee, that worked with them. Leonard Jones, his committee that worked, you know. So we have done very well. And we increased the scholarship to $150. So we are now giving $150 and we only give thirteen, because Havre de Grace School gives one scholarship
 
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only. That's the Leon S. Roy. 7 They had a principal there,
a fine man, named Leon S. Roy.	They don't have a scholarship 
organization such as we have. But they do help one student. And they give that one student all the money that they make, which, of course, is more than our little $150. And so, therefore, we only give thirteen of them. But the high schools in the county have increased. And Leonard was telling me not too long ago that he would have to, his committee would have to get together and they would have to make other plans, you know, because we won't be able to raise that much money. But we do help them out, and it is an incentive. And you know we have made available over 120 scholarships since we've been organized.
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And about 90 or 95 have been accepted.. And some of them said,
one day in talking, "Such a one didn't stay in school." Well I say this, "If he had one year of high school, of playing above high school, that's an incentive." So we still haven't failed, because he knows then something about what it's all about. And he knows the world needs him. And in some cases later on they've come back and gotten good jobs because they have worked on their own. But they've had at least one year above the required year. So we've been doing nicely with the scholarship fund. And I have enjoyed the work immensely --teaching, studying, and working with the children. Dr. Williams said to me one day, "Miss Ruff, about how many children do you think you've taught?" I told him I don't know, because I started when I was over there into Rockfordhwith] about ten or eleven children. And I don't know how many I
 
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along nicely with children. I love children. My mother used to say, "Curb that temper; you're too quick." Because it used to be a word and a blow with me. Playing with the boys, you see I played with my brothers, and they were rough, and I was rough with them. [laughs] So that's practically --
CS: When you worked with Ames Sunday school, was this during your time teaching or was it after you retired?
CR: I went there first -- I taught in the primary grades. You know how they take the girls, let the girls out in a small church like we had. And I used to teach in the primary grades. Then when I was given music, then I'd play for them. I used to play at Sunday school. And I grew up doing that, you know, teaching and playing for the children's Sunday school. And finally the superintendent of the Sunday school for some reason left. I don't know now just why. Anyhow, they hadn't any superintendent, but I was always there every Sunday, helping
Mrs. [	] Marrish.	So the pastor said to me, "Why 
don't you try it?" He said, "You've been working under Mrs. Mattish,? and you're here every Sunday, and you like the children, and the children all like you." He said, "Co ahead and try it." So I did. I began work, with his help. I began working as a superintendent. And of course I got materials, Sunday school books, and what have you, and read up on all of those. No wonder I can't see now. Because I would read my head off, trying to get things straight. I didn't want anything to go wrong. I wanted things to be right. And so I worked along with the Sunday school, went to the Sunday school sessions when they would have them in Baltimore, and learned what they were
 
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doing there, observe what they were doing there, and come back and put it into operation in my own Sunday school. And at one time we had at least 65 or 70 children in the Sunday school. And I used to do this, I used to go around to visit them, you know, and if the children weren't there, I'd go see why. I didn't ask them. I went to the parents. I always went to the parents, and asked the parents why. I did the same thing when I was teaching. I'd find out where my children lived, and I would say to them, 'What Sunday do you have church?" Because you know in the rural sections they had church every other Sunday, or something like that, in some places. And they would say, "We're going to have it next Sunday." And I said, "All right, I'll be there next Sunday." Then the children would come out to see if it was they, you know, and the parents would go there and visit. And I did the same thing with the Sunday school when I was here, and the children didn't come. And I said, "You weren't in Sunday school, no. Why?" And you know how they hesitate. So I'd go see the parents, all the
parents right here in Bel Air.	I'd go around to the homes 
and talk to the parents. And they [said], "All right Cornel,
I'll send them out, they'll be out there." And the children
came and we had 65 or 70. And we had	lovely programs in the
church. I always had programs for them, because they were
anxious for that. Do you know Dr. [	I Hummell? 
CS: No.
CR: She's a member of our church. Well she has a daughter named Sadie. And if I didn't have a program of some kind, Sadie would
say, "Miss Cornelia, when are you going to have something?"
 
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And they were anxious. With children you have to keep them, you know, on the go. Something attractive, interesting, and they'll come. We used to have lovely Sunday school programs. Singing -- we always sang lovely, lively songs. And we had drills and marches and what have you. And Sunday school was worth attending. Of course, as the years went by, you know they've changed the system now somewhat. I was talking to the girl, Dorothy, not too long ago. And I told her I don't hear anything about Sunday school. "Oh, it's fine," she said. But personally I didn't think so, because, for this reason -¬They don't have any activities that are a drawing card. And when Sunday school gets down to eight or nine or ten children, I don't think, there's something lacking there, if the children are available. Not [when] there are no children here. And today Eel Air -- all its homes have been torn down, you know that. And there are very few homes with where the people live. And they have moved out, and that really makes a difference. But when I was young and coming up, all the homes all up and down Back Street (we called it Back Street or Sparn? Street), through Howlett2 Street and Alice Anne Street, and all around there were children, plenty of children. The unfortunate thing is our parents, most of the parents rented (that was the rub) They rented instead of, you know, owning the home. And if they had owned the home, more owned the home, I'll put it that way Some did own. Then probably they would have held on to the homes and the town wouldn't have taken them. Maybe not, I don't know. These laws are, it's a peculiar thing, they might have required them. But, life has meant a great deal to me. It's meant much
 
Ruff	20
happiness. I've had sadness. But I've had much happiness. I've enjoyed working with the children. I've enjoyed working in the church, and in the Sunday school in particular. We always had Christmas plays and Easter plays. And when I found out that my sight was failing, and I couldn't play for the choir, I was a hurt soul, that I couldn't do the things that I would like to do. But God knows best.
CS: Well could you tell me, when schools integrated in 1964, were
you about to retire, or did you go into the integrated school?
CR: I retired before that. I had retired before the integration came. I wasn't thinking of retirement I had taught a number of years, of course. But Miss Ross and I were friends, and she lived here with me. She was from Philadelphia. And she lived here with me. And all of a sudden, she decided that she wanted to retire. And I didn't know that she had even mentioned it to Dr. Williams, the principal. And Dr. Williams came to me and said, "Miss Ruff, Miss Ross wants to retire." That was in 1959. And I said, "Is that so? Why?" He said, "I don't think she's well." He said she doesn't look as if she feels too good. And he said, "She wants to retire, and I don't know what to say about it. I don't like to tell her no. I wish she would stay. And she says she's going to see if you won't retire, because you've been friends all along and have worked together and have earned your first year degree together and your second degree together." And we did. "And she's unmarried, and has no family, but older ones in her family, like aunts and such. And you have no one in your family [except] your sisters and brothers, so she wants to retire, and she thinks it would be nice if you
 
Ruff	21
would retire with her." I said, "Well, she hasn't been down to my room" (she was on the elementary side, and I was on the high school side) -- So when Berta came over she said, "Yes, and Dr. Williams told me to go down to the office this afternoon, and I'm going this afternoon to see Mr. --" (I don't know what his name is; 1 can't recall his name. He had charge of the teachers, you know, you'd report to [unclear]. I forget his name. I can see him, but I can't recall his name.) And I said, "Why?" And she said, "I don't feel good, Neel, and I think I'll stay out of school." I said, "Roberta, I'm thinking about going back to school next year." I wanted to work on my doctorate. And she said, "Well, I'll go up [to] New York ?or wherever you go. I'll go with you to be company for you." But she said, "No more school for me. I'm leaving; I'm leaving. Something tells me to stop. I should have stopped years ago, but I just kept staying in here." She said, "Both of us should have been out, because we have no reason to stay here. We have no children, and we don't have our parents [they] are dead. And why do we just stay here and work ourselves to death? I would like to travel," she said, "I would like to travel." "So I told Dr. Williams that I was retiring." I said, "When?" And she said,
"Now, as of now." And I said, "	Now?" She said, 
"Yes. Will you go along with me?" Well, I reasoned it out like she did, and I didn't have any reason to stay in there. So I said, "I guess so." And we went right down to the board that afternoon, and talked to the person in authority there. I can't recall his name now, but [he was] a lovely man. He's retired since then. And he said, "Oh, I don't want you ladies to retire."
 
Ruff	22
He said, "Take a sabbatical leave and then cone back." And Berta said, "No, my mind's made up." And then he said, "Well, there's nothing I can do." So he wrote us up. And that was in June. And in November she died.
CS: She knew she was dying.
CR: Yes, in November she died. But that was why we retired. I suppose they would have kicked us out anyhow if we had stayed much longer [laughs]. Because we were still there, and I was enjoying the work. And the children were nice, you know, and all. Although several of the teachers said to me, "You did the right thing to get out, Miss Ruff. The children are so bad now, and they're uncontrollable. They're not like the way [they were] when you first started." But I always felt that I wouldn't have had that much trouble with them. I don't know. I might have. I used to say to the children, "All right now, my name is Ruff. But I'm only rough when you make me rough." That used to
tickle Mr. Wright. He was across in the hall from me. I said, "All right. I'm only rough when you make me rough. My name is Ruff, R-u-f-f. But if you make me, r-o-u-g-h, [unclear], I can get rough too." So we retired. And since the retirement, my sight began to get bad,after school. I was at Central. I had to be out for, oh, I guess in all, eight months. Not consecutively, but once in a while, I had to be out. I was smiling because I was out so long, and we had a pastor here,
whose name was Rev. [	] Davis, and he used to 
substitute for me. So whenever he would come down here, he would say to Minnie, "How's your sister?" And Minnie would tell him. And Minnie said to me one day, "You let Rev. Davis
 
Ruff	23
say -- You better get better, because Rev. Davis is asking every day how you are, and he'd grin and he'll take your job from you." And I told him, "It was all his when he wanted." And he laughed. "Because he was down here every day, Minnie said, asking about you." She said, "Next thing he'll take your job. You'd better hurry up and get well."
I've enjoyed working in the church, enjoyed very much in the church. I got along nicely with those in the church. I
under Mrs.	11 Whittington.	She was the
president of the Women's Society of Christian Service. What is it they call it now?
CS: Methodist Women.
CR: Methodist Women. I studied under Mrs. Whittington, and we used to have lovely programs under [her]. I was vice president. And at that time the vice president was chairman of all the activities, like Women's Day and whatever other days you'd choose to have. And we used to have nice programs at that time. For Women's Day, we'd have a lovely program, and we'd always have a nice program when the pastor would be on his vacation, and the fourth Sunday in the month. I had a friend in

Baltimore whose name was	7
Braxton,. and she was a
great worker in Trinity Church. And Ella7 would say, "Mary 7 Cornel, if you want to have an affair, I'll come out." And she would come up here and bring two and three buses on the next Sunday. And it was called "Trinity Day." And the choir would come, and the other members, and they would spend the whole day here. And they would eat dinner up here. And the committee in the kitchen would have prepared dinner for them.
 
Ruf f	24
And the nicest thing about it was that they never left here with the things that we needed to be [selling] still for sale. Like, we'd have corn, [and] they'd buy up the corn. If we'd have some cakes on the table, they'd buy the cakes. Whatever we had, they would take it, you know. And when they left here, everything was gone, sold out. If we had charged then like they charge now for things, we certainly would have had a lovely treasury, because things are so high today, you know. We had a lovely day; we called that Trinity Day in the church up here.
CS: Now before Ames was United Methodist --
CR: First it was Ames Methodist Church, and then when the churches were integrated, they called themselves the United Methodist Church then. Now it's united, because it's white and colored. Where at first we had a colored bishop. I knew him. I was in class out to Morgan with his wife. His name is Bishop Love. And his brother was the commencement speaker when I graduated -¬Dr. Love.
CS: Did the integration of the schools -- how did that run? Was
that smooth1 the integration of the schools? I haven't heard anything about it.
CR: There were separate colored schools. There were separate schools. Whites went to themselves; the colored went to themselves. Even the curricula wasn't the same, believe it or not. The books weren't the same. Now Mr. Wright, or the school board, was saying to me, "Use the best of the used books from the white school. Now those were the books that my children used. And what was true in my school was true all over the county. And they would mark in there -- they were shrewd,too. They would mark inside the bock, "fair." That meant this book
 
Ruff	25
that you'll get is in fair condition. And this one would be "good." Well, that's almost practically new. And then sometimes you'd get a new book, but very seldom. But you used the books that the white schools discarded; you would use those books. And that's the way I taught, had to teach. And not only did I teach, all of us, the colored teachers, because there was a separation all the way through there, although Mr. Wright was a fine person. I liked him. I liked him very much. I mean he was thoughtful. And to me, now I'm talking about myself, he was thoughtful and helpful to me. And if he would come to visit my classroom, and he saw something that he thought could be improved upon, oh he could tell me and I could check on it, he would do so. But not in that stern, bossy way, "You didn't do this, and you should do that." But he would [say], "Now Miss Ruff, I noticed such and such a thing, and I think this will help improve that condition." Well, you didn't mind a person like that. You welcomed when they would, you know, mention things. He was just that type, and I liked him very much. And I liked Mr. --
[end of side two, tape one]
And, of course, I guess Mr. White? couldn't do any better, because his board, you know, he had the board behind him. And whether he would have changed things or not, I don't know. But I feel, always have felt that Mr. White would have been much nicer to the schools. When you said you were from Connecticut We had a white supervisor, I don't know her name, who was from Connecticut, and I don't know where in Connecticut. But she boarded down the street here sornewheres, with some white people
 
Ruff	26
below us. And that was when I was struggling to get through. And my mother was friendly, and she was friendly, this lady from Connecticut. And my mother would be outside arranging flowers, because she had lovely flowers out front. And this lady would come past. She was a white supervisor, and in that way, I know my mother told her I was teaching (she was proud of it, you know). So she told my mother that if I needed any help, she would help me. So whenever we had, oh one time or twice, we had examinations where they had to go from first grade to third grade (people went up, you know I told you, had the grade assistance)-- She left here one day, oh several books that I should read up and check up on. And I've never forgotten her. I know she was from Connecticut. And I didn't know her. She always told my mother, "I want to come down and see your daughter; I want to talk to her; and I'm going to come here." But we never had a chance to meet. She wasn't here too long, but she was very friendly and very helpful, because she left these books for me to look over, you know, and said they would help me in the examination. Now maybe they were the cause of my being able to go from one grade up to another. But she was a nice person, a very nice person.
Life in Harford County has been nice. I've always been helpful. I like to be helpful. And I know we had -- There were colored people lived here in Bel Air; [their] name was Turner. Mr. Turner used to sing on our choir. And we miss him so much. He had a lovely bass voice. He knew music too; he could real music. He had taken music under a professor in Baltimore aamed Professor Toomey.. And he knew music, and
 
or
 
Ruff	27
could read music. And on our choir at that time Mrs. Turner
could read music, and Miss Ross read music, she could read
music. And we had one or two others who could read music. And
we gave some of the finest musical concerts that you want to
hear. We thought so anyhow [laughs] with
it wasn't bad. Well, we were invited to Baltimore. Our choir
was invited to Baltimore. And our soloist -- we sang "Infamatous','
and our soloist sang the solo part in it, a girl from
up here. So we weren't doing too bad, were we? And we used to
7
sing anthems,	because Miss King, Daisy Kings she knew music
too. She was a musical lover. And our director was a musical
lover, Walter [	] was a musical lover. And there were 
three or four of us who could read music, and that made it easier for the others, because they could lead. I was just laughing to myself when I said that because Roberta sang contralto, Miss Ross sang contralto. And we tried to get those altos -- separate them, you know. And when Berta would sing contralto, the altos would cone right down there with her. If she sang alto, they were all right. That was their Voice, that was their key. But as soon as Berta would sing contralto, they would all fall down, and we wouldn't have any alto then. We wouldn't have any altos. We had lots of fun on the choir, [unclear] singing you know.
Yes, this lady from Connecticut was very nice. I can't remember her name. And I didn't know her too well. But she used to help us, because she would give material to my mother, and tell my mother, "You give this to your daughter and tell her this will help her in her test." And it would help us
 
Ruff	28
too. Berta and I would take and get the material and read.
 
But Eel Air was -- I think in general the people were pretty good, you know. And then, I started to tell you before that, before I happened to think of that other thing, laughing over missing a key in there -- The war was on,
time for the world war, you know. And Mrs. Mamie Turner, this is Mr. Turner's wife, was interested in the Red Cross. She was interested in the Red Cross, and she asked me, she said, "Neel, would you like to help me with the Red Cross?" She was appointed, or they had asked her, if she would help with the Red Cross, [to] secure funds. And I said, "Yes, I don't mind." And then I went in with Mamie. But Mamie didn't stay too long; she was half sick or something, I don't know what. She gave it up, and I took over the Red Cross. And we used to have meetings, and we filled kits and worked round
Elizabeth Whittington was one of the persons, and Mildred
Dorsey, and Minnie I	and my sister that died 
here at Christmastime, and others. And we used to go up to the building on Haley Street up here. And up there we worked under cancer, and we worked with the cancer people. And I used to go all around to the various places and try to talk up the Red Cross. And the children in my school -- I would tell them to tell their parents. And I would send them down to Asberry/ and all around, asking for donations. And they would send me a dollar. And at that time it had a little stamp to put in your window, a Red Cross that you stuck in your door or your window to show that you were a contributor. They would give me a dollar. I had all the children who lived in Churchville, wherever they lived, and I
 
4
Ruf £	29
would ask them to ask their mother if they would send me a contribution of one dollar, and I would send them one of these stickers that go on the window or door. And I worked with Mrs.
I Gross,12 oh, I don't know how long, in fact until she passed [away]. And then I started working with the cancer people. And I used to go up to the building, the Rough's 7 Building up here. And I had several of them to go with me. I mentioned Minnie, and Mildred Dorsey, and a girl over here
'1
named Allie . Dorsey, her sister, and different ones. And we
used to go up there and spend one night every week, one night a week, making pads, cancer pads, you know they have a little something -- I don't know whether you ever noticed or not, or know about them. When the cancer pads, you get two or three sizes, some of them small, two inch square, and another would
be four inches like that, and five inches.	And we had the
-7
material to teem,' you know, the large sheets, and we would cut them all out and make cancer pads for the cancerous people.
And we did that one night every week, oh for at least two years
I
we would go up there, up here to the Health'Building on Hayes ?
Street, and work with the cancer people. And I used to go to the meetings. They would have meetings and I would attend the meetings. And they always had a card party every year, and I would make a contribution to the card party. And I worked also with the Red Cross people and the cancer people. I worked with
both of them.
CS: You've really been busy and active?
CR: I've been busy, and I've enjoyed it. And I have that now to look back on, because I can't do the things that I would like
 
Ruff	30
to do. If I could see, I think, you know, I could read up and find out -- I have to get most of my information off the air.
 
And it's conflicting, you know that. You listen one time, and one reporter's saying one thing. And then another reporter will
 
which I guess that's natural anyhow. different light or angle. What that
reach others responses,	and
 
you another version of it, People see things in a means is, when you can touch somebody, be right
 
there yourself and see it, to someone that's never been the
2
other way around.' • But I've enjoyed life, and I've enjoyed life and [I'm] still enjoying it. Never grow old -- I don't believe in that. A lady was talking to me the other day. And she said, "Miss Ruff, how old are you? About how old? I don't mean to be too inquisitive, but I was just wondering. You've done so many things; I wonder how old you are." And I said, "A long while ago I found a little poem. I could see then to read, and I found a little poem. It's paraphrased, because I memorized it at one time but I don't know it now, all of it,
-7
so it's paraphrased, but the source' is there." I said, "Age is the condition of a mind, when you have left your joys behind. And your ambitions are dead, then you are old. But if in life you keep your zest, and if in life you do your best, no matter how the years go by, no matter how the years fly, you are not old." So I told her that I had always tried in life to look ahead, not look behind, but look ahead, to look up, not down, and then help. I like to help. So it didn't make any difference how old I was. Kind of like the poem. It's the condition of a mind. So it doesn't make any difference. She
 
Ruff	31
said, "That's pretty good, Miss Ruff, that's all right."
didn't have to tell her how old [laughs. I don't know whether I gave her my age or not, but I know I don't recall now. It shows -- the age, doesn't it? [laughs]
CS: No.
 
End of Interview